**** Whats the difference between the 3601/3602/3603 ****

[is that my watch]

Got chatting in the vintage forum about the 3602 movement and well got me thinking I use this movement a lot but I don't know that much about it well if honest some of it might just have forgotten like it was based on the early Colbert or is it Cortebert did have some good links to that will have to find them again ,

I tend to use the 3602 out of lack of knowledge of others of this family of movement also I suppose at the time it was quite easy to get a 3602 and the pocket watch that had a three o'clock stem was very easy to convert with out much effort just simple a matter of re-casing and replace the stem from solid bar to thread bar so you can cut to size of case . now when it came in the 12 o'clock stem that meant you would have to replace the dial, as when flipping the movement to wind at three the 12 o'clock would be at the three p.m point .

But they are becoming more expensive to buy so might look into the 3601 as an option but just will have to cover the date or make it a feature of the watch kinda like the central sweep in this instance ( might look in to doing some thing with one if I can get one at a good price )

I realise for a movement I love to use my knowledge was very lacking on the differences between them yes think it need's to be looked in to as this is a great movement that need to be seen more

3601...

Fig. 1 Fig. 2

FE 3601 Features manual wind sweep second date: set by changing 19.40-24h Data 11.5''', Dm= 25.6mm, Do= 26.0mm H= 3.6mm F= 1.4mm T= 1.78mm 17 jewels f = 18000 A/h power-reserve 47h Balance staff U3292 Stem W3246 Mainspring / battery Zf692, 1.20 x 10.0 x 0.11 x 320mm Hands 1.40 x 0.90 x 0.21mm

Remarks strange: train and hand gear separately driven by the barrel (cf. MSR T43) This design allows low profile and gives space for a big balance, but it requires high precision and shake-free gears, because so many wheels are involved in the coupling between second- and minute hand. family/generations: manual wind/automatic respectively: 3600/3610: - 3601/3611: date 3602/3612: day, date quickset date, new hands gear: 4600/4610: - 4601/4611: date 4602/4612: day, date suffix A: minor modifications automatic thinner: 5601/5611: date 5602/5612: day, date 5606/5616: date, month Example, year: signature; shock device ca. 1975: - ; Antichoc-102

3602/03*

Fig. 1 Fig. 2 Fig. 3 Fig. 4 Fig. 5 Fig. 6 Fig. 7 Fig. 8 Fig. 9 Fig. 10 Fig. 11

Molnia 3602 Features stem wind and set sub second Data 16''', Dm= 36.0mm, Do= 36.6mm H= 4.65mm F= 0.7mm T= 2.0mm 18 jewels f = 18000 A/h power-reserve 41h Balance staff U3210 Stem W1893 Mainspring / battery 1.85 x 13.5 x 0.16 x 400mm Hands 1.88 x 0.98 / 0.22mm since ca. 1985: 1.88 x 0.98 / 0.25mm

Remarks 1960-2008 open face calibre Breguet hairspring occasional transliteration: Molnija Russian movements were often introduced with a pretty name, like Molnia (=lightning). Later the movements got number codes which are often misinterpreted as calibre designation. Actually the first pair of digits indicate the diameter im millimeters (36mm here), the second the main features, e.g. 02 for manual wind with sub second and without shock devices, or 03 for the same with shock devices. While other movements got suffixes like 1, 2 or H, 2H (for new and even newer), the designation for this long line of movements remained 3602, although many modifications were applied. Even the older 3.5mm high variants and the newer with 4.65mm got no different designations, although they have almost no common parts. Also the character of the designation Molnia changed with time. First it was a calibre name, which is also written on the older variants made by the 2nd Watch Factory (brand Slava); accordingly these variants are occasionally called Slava 3602. When production was tranfered to the Chelyabinsk Watch Factory the designation remained, but extended with 3602. Molnia alone became a model name for watches with this movement. Later Molnia was registered as trademark of the Chelyabinsk Watch Factory, and the movements got the Molnia logo, a dial with hands. Unfortunately different sources give scarcely consistent informations about the evolution of these movements. This archive therefore restricts to existing samples, their features, and production periodes, as far as can be taken from signatures and informations from first owners. The respective signatures are translated. This should do for a first estimation and for successful sourcing of spare parts. family/generations: *) narrow stripes, **) Geneva stripes, ***) no decoration 3602 H= 3.5mm 2nd Watch Factory: 1948-1955: * signatures: 15 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia, Salut 1948-1955: ** signatures: 15 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia 1955-1963: ** signatures, 15/17 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia, Iskra 3602 H= 3.5mm, Chelyabinsk Watch Factory: 1951: * signatures: early logo (with star), 15 jewels 1952-1954: ** signatures: early logo (with star), 15 jewels 1954-1965: ** signatures: new logo (443), 15 jewels 1965-1968: ** signatures: Molnia logo (dial) under balance, 15 jewels 1968: *** signatures: Molnia logo (dial) under balance, 15 jewels 3602: H= 4.65mm Chelyabinsk Watch Factory: 1960- (Fig.1-3): ** cam disc regulator, crown wheel with separate gear for the winding pinion, mounted with 2 screws, cap-jewel settings, heavy balance with 18 screws, signatures: new logo (443), 18 jewels 1965- (Fig.4): ** like above, but signatures: Molnia logo under balance, 18 jewels 1967 (Fig.5): *** else like above 1967- (Fig.6): *** like above, but cap jewels without settings ca. 1970: *** long regulator lever (no longer cam disc), signatures: Molnia logo under balance or on bridge, 18 jewels ca. 1970- (Fig.7): *** short regulator lever, signatures: Molnia logo on bridge, 18 jewels ca. 1975-1984 (Fig.8): *** over all coarser finish, lighter balance with 12 screws to compensate higher friction losses, crown wheel with single gear for winding pinion and ratchet wheel, mounted with one screw, signatures: SU, Molnia logo under balance 1984-1985 (Fig. 9): *** like above, but additional date signature, until now noticed: 84 3 ... 85 3 ca. 1985-2008 (Fig.10-11): *** base plate modified, setting-lever pin instead screw, winding wheels often without sunburst finish, signatures: uncertain, SU and/or Molnia logo under balance 3608: sweep second, base: 3602 H3.5 Chelyabinsk: 1957-1966: *** signatures: like contemporary base movements, but 16 jewels and no calibre signature 3617: chronograph on base movement 3602 H= 3.5mm 2nd Watch Factory: ca. 1952-1959: *** signatures: like contemporary base movements, but 19 jewels and no calibre signature Example, year: signature; shock device 1-3) 1965: 1, 273134, 2-65, Chelyabinsk Watch Factory, 18 Kamnei (18 jewels) 4) 1965: 323178, 4-65, 18 Kamnei (18 jewels) 5) 1967: 5, 198784, 2-67, 18 Kamnei (18 jewels) 6) 1967: 5, 986675, 3-67, 18 Kamnei (18 jewels) 7) ca. 1970: 1, 3, 183762, Molnia, 18 Kamnei (18 jewels) 8) ca. 1980: 854328, SU 9) 1984: 132142, 84 4, SU 10-11) ca. 1985: 1, 817906, SU

* 02 for manual wind with sub second and without shock devices, or 03 for the same with shock devices.

As always Ismy

not really sure I got the right 3601 there not sure at all

[is that my watch]

this is the interesting bit pulled from the rafitt

Russian movements were often introduced with a pretty name, like Molnia (=lightning).
Later the movements got number codes which are often misinterpreted as calibre designation. Actually the first pair of digits indicate the diameter im millimeters (36mm here), the second the main features, e.g. 02 for manual wind with sub second and without shock devices, or 03 for the same with shock devices.
While other movements got suffixes like 1, 2 or H, 2H (for new and even newer), the designation for this long line of movements remained 3602, although many modifications were applied. Even the older 3.5mm high variants and the newer with 4.65mm got no different designations, although they have almost no common parts.

Also the character of the designation Molnia changed with time. First it was a calibre name, which is also written on the older variants made by the 2nd Watch Factory(brand Slava); accordingly these variants are occasionally called Slava 3602. When production was tranfered to the Chelyabinsk Watch Factory the designation remained, but extended with 3602. Molnia alone became a model name for watches with this movement. Later Molnia was registered as trademark of the Chelyabinsk Watch Factory, and the movements got the Molnia logo, a dial with hands.

Unfortunately different sources give scarcely consistent informations about the evolution of these movements. This archive therefore restricts to existing samples, their features, and production periodes, as far as can be taken from signatures and informations from first owners. The respective signatures are translated. This should do for a first estimation and for successful sourcing of spare parts.

family/generations:
*) narrow stripes, **) Geneva stripes, ***) no decoration
3602 H= 3.5mm 2nd Watch Factory:
1948-1955: * signatures: 15 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia, Salut
1948-1955: ** signatures: 15 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia
1955-1963: ** signatures, 15/17 jewels, ratchet wheel: Molnia, Iskra
3602 H= 3.5mm, Chelyabinsk Watch Factory:
1951: * signatures: early logo (with star), 15 jewels
1952-1954: ** signatures: early logo (with star), 15 jewels
1954-1965: ** signatures: new logo (443), 15 jewels
1965-1968: ** signatures: Molnia logo (dial) under balance, 15 jewels
1968: *** signatures: Molnia logo (dial) under balance, 15 jewels
3602: H= 4.65mm Chelyabinsk Watch Factory:
1960- (Fig.1-3): ** cam disc regulator, crown wheel with separate gear for the winding pinion, mounted with 2 screws, cap-jewel settings, heavy balance with 18 screws, signatures: new logo (443), 18 jewels
1965- (Fig.4): ** like above, but signatures: Molnia logo under balance, 18 jewels
1967 (Fig.5): *** else like above
1967- (Fig.6): *** like above, but cap jewels without settings
ca. 1970: *** long regulator lever (no longer cam disc), signatures: Molnia logo under balance or on bridge, 18 jewels
ca. 1970- (Fig.7): *** short regulator lever, signatures: Molnia logo on bridge, 18 jewels
ca. 1975-1984 (Fig.8): *** over all coarser finish, lighter balance with 12 screws to compensate higher friction losses, crown wheel with single gear for winding pinion and ratchet wheel, mounted with one screw, signatures: SU, Molnia logo under balance
1984-1985 (Fig. 9): *** like above, but additional date signature, until now noticed: 84 3 ... 85 3
ca. 1985-2008 (Fig.10-11): *** base plate modified, setting-lever pin instead screw, winding wheels often without sunburst finish, signatures: uncertain, SU and/or Molnia logo under balance
3608: sweep second, base: 3602 H3.5 Chelyabinsk:
1957-1966: *** signatures: like contemporary base movements, but 16 jewels and no calibre signature
3617: chronograph on base movement 3602 H= 3.5mm 2nd Watch Factory:
ca. 1952-1959: *** signatures: like contemporary base movements, but 19 jewels and no calibre signature

[is that my watch]

and a question would it be a 3601 or a 3600 as find references to this movements...

"Following on from that, so far as I'm aware, the only variants ever made of the Molnija movement were:3600 - no seconds, not shockproof (primarily for Braille watches)
3602 - subdial seconds, not shockproof (the common version, also includes the skeleton variant)
3603 - subdial seconds, shockproof (the later versions, particularly used in wristwatches by other manufacturers)
'Ural' - this would have been called 3608 if the codes had existed at the time i.e. centre seconds, not shockproof "

[OhDark30]

My understanding was that the 3602, 3603 difference was shock protection - the -02 with, the -03 without.

As for 3601, the movement pic you've posted looks like something else completely (sorry!)

These Molnijas were derived from the Cortebert 620, I've just been reading here and there is some discussion if the 3601, the closest to the original, is more correctly the 3602.a or the ChK-6

[is that my watch]

My understanding was that the 3602, 3603 difference was shock protection - the -02 with, the -03 without.

As for 3601, the movement pic you've posted looks like something else completely (sorry!)

These Molnijas were derived from the Cortebert 620, I've just been reading here and there is some discussion if the 3601, the closest to the original, is more correctly the 3602.a or the ChK-6

no need to apologise I thought it was not the case either once looking at them side by side think just the same movement number but that where the similarity ends ....

think should be more looking for a 3600 then a 3601 maybe from reading rafitt

[is that my watch]

could not find a 3601 on rafiit apart from the one above but think it looks more wrist watch then pocket watch movement if truth be told

[is that my watch]

yes so be this one then that started it all ?

Fig. 1

Cortebert 620 Features stem wind and set sub second Data 16''', Dm= 36.0mm H= 3.6mm 17 jewels f = 18000 A/h Balance staff U938 Stem W1436 Mainspring / battery 2.00 x 13.5 x 0.14mm Hands 1.87 x 1.10mm

Remarks open face calibre Breguet hairspring differences not known between 616, 618 618 is probably a variant especially made for Rolex/Panerai family: 616, 618: open face, 16''', H= 4.7mm 617: hunter, 16''', H= 4.7mm 620: open face, 16''', H= 3.6mm 622: hunter, 16''', H= 3.6mm 624: open face, 17''', H= 3.6mm Example, year: signature; shock device ca. 1945: Rolex, Fab. Suisse, 17 Jewels (Rolex 5513, Cortebert 618, H=4.7mm)

[is that my watch]

so chatting with kath and a few links we both looked at it seems a 3601 is a mis-identification that happens a lot it seems what is refereed to a 3601 was in fact it seems the original first movement made ... from one the links we was looking at

"The correct designation for that movement is ChK-6, which you can see stamped on the movement, along with the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory stamp and the date for the 1st quarter of 1952.

I'm not sure on what basis the owner referred to it as a 3601.
ChK-6 was the early designation for the Cortebert-like movement when it was made by a couple of factories. In the early 1960s, the standard calibre codes were introduced and this movement became designated 3602.

Ok thanks Chascomm I have done a little research (Google) and see that what you say is apparently correct 3601 is used as a synonym for ChK-6 , the former designation perhaps being invented so as to fit in with the other model numbers 3600 , 3602 and 3603 so as to make it all nice and tidy if unfortunately erroneous. 3602a is another invented designation for the ChK-6 and 3602b has been used for the 18 ruby slightly different movement usually referred to as just 3602 which is how it is stamped on such movements.I think that the movement numbers problem is now solved. "

[Strela167]

Some info. on here too

http://watchesz.free.fr/mfa/lip_au_pays_des_soviets.htm

[OhDark30]

Some info. on here too

http://watchesz.free.fr/mfa/lip_au_pays_des_soviets.htm

Well done Dave! I remember that article for the stuff on Zwezdas - I hadn't realised there was a Lip pw connection too