Movies / Films / Flicks

[Perseus]

That's interesting because I had a very different experience. While I can overlook things like bad humor, ignoring Snoke's past and Rey's parents there was way too much tomfoolery for me to call the movie logical.

SPOILERS BELOW

- Finn and Rose have to find the code breaker, the one man who can disable the tracking device. Surprise! Some random guy just shows up who can do the same thing.

- Holdo fills in for Leia and she has this super duper secret plan. The plan is so secret she refuses to tell anyone, even her senior members, to the point they're ready to commit mutiny.

- Near the end of the movie hope is nearly lost but wait Finn is going to sacrifice himself and save everyone. Surprise! Rose smashes her vehicle into Finn's (nearly killing them both) because fighting for love is more important that saving all the rebels. Sure her sister gave her life fighting the First Order, but whatever.

- Oh my goodness Luke and Kylo Ren are going to fight. Oh no! Luke died. Oh wait no he didn't. Oh...he actually did.

[Raza]

That's interesting because I had a very different experience. While I can overlook things like bad humor, ignoring Snoke's past and Rey's parents there was way too much tomfoolery for me to call the movie logical.

Alright, let's do this.

SPOILERS BELOW

- Finn and Rose have to find the code breaker, the one man who can disable the tracking device. Surprise! Some random guy just shows up who can do the same thing.

Not "the one man"--the one man Maz trusts to do the job. That doesn't mean that his skills are unique, just that one person finds him trustworthy. The Star Wars universe is full of criminals, I'm not surprised that they ran into someone else who was capable of doing the job.

- Holdo fills in for Leia and she has this super duper secret plan. The plan is so secret she refuses to tell anyone, even her senior members, to the point they're ready to commit mutiny.

At first, Holdo's actions were frustrating--until you look at them from her perspective. Our main characters didn't know her and she didn't know them. All she knew about our heroes was that Poe was a loose cannon who disobeys orders at the cost of lives and was just demoted because of it. Like any management system, there's an inner circle and there are people who aren't in it. And at this time, Poe wasn't in it. She didn't have reason to trust him with her plan--and not only that, it's the military. I've never been in the military, but from the people I know who were, I gather that the higher ranks aren't too keen on explaining themselves to the downhill officers. They give orders, they're not accustomed to convincing the people lower in the chain of command. We're mad at Holdo as viewers because Poe is one of our protagonists, so we're trained to see it from his side. Of course he's trustworthy, of course he should be in the inner circle, of course he should be involved in the plan. But that's our perspective.

- Near the end of the movie hope is nearly lost but wait Finn is going to sacrifice himself and save everyone. Surprise! Rose smashes her vehicle into Finn's (nearly killing them both) because fighting for love is more important that saving all the rebels. Sure her sister gave her life fighting the First Order, but whatever.

This is actually one of the most important parts of the movie and the message of the movie--and is one of the things most consistent with Jedi teachings throughout the lore. Rose makes the point that fighting to save what you love is more important than simply fighting because you hate. That's pure light side versus dark side. Through history, Jedi have wielded insane power and killed thousands upon thousands of people and sent even thousands more to their deaths (albeit mostly clones). But violence is never seen as evil; the reason behind the violence is important. Finn may not be a Jedi, but the light side/dark side battle is an important one in all of us. So here, Rose makes the point that surviving today to retreat and fight for the right reasons is better than going on a suicide run because you hate the First Order and want them dead. This echoes Holdo's sacrifice--she wasn't trying to take as many of the First Order out as possible because she wanted them dead, she did what she did to protect her people. Her cause was a positive one--protection, life, goodness. It wasn't about killing, it was about preserving life. Finn's sacrifice would have been about killing, not about preserving life. Rose reminded him that preserving life is what they're supposed to be about--that the good in life is what's worth fighting for, not revenge or hate. Whether you agree with that is up to you, but this is absolutely in line with Jedi teachings and in line with the message of the overall Star Wars story. Redemption was available even for Darth Vader--one of the men behind the murder of presumably billions of people. Reason is huge in Star Wars.

- Oh my goodness Luke and Kylo Ren are going to fight. Oh no! Luke died. Oh wait no he didn't. Oh...he actually did.

A stroke of genius on Luke's part. Another sacrifice play by Luke out of love for his sister and the rebels. Force projection (which was written in the lore, which Rian Johnson pointed out to haters) took the full remainder of his energy. He put himself up as the ultimate low hanging fruit; take advantage of Kylo Ren's hatred to buy time for the rebels to get out safely. This scene is huge and layered and absolutely necessary to the story.

Luke's fight does the following:
(1) From a functional standpoint, it allows the rebels to escape.
(2) For Luke, this was his redemption. He faced a moment of fear and weakness and instead falling to the dark side himself, as his father did, he may have done worse by creating the most powerful Sith of all time. Luke's final acts were those of a savior, protecting the ones he loved by sacrificing himself to get them to safety, and his sacrifice was a big blow to Kylo Ren's dark arc.
(3) For the story, Luke's death has incredible importance. A big part of this new trilogy is the death of the old. If you look at the whole 9 movie arc as one story, you get the whole picture. The prequel trilogy (as bad as they were) showed the Jedi Order in its heyday--the peak of its power, but also the peak of its arrogance and corruption. If the Jedi Order were Odysseus, this is where his hubris gets him in trouble. The original trilogy is the low--it's the all is lost for the whole series, and it moves into hopefulness towards the end. The new trilogy is about transition and rebirth. For the new to come in, the old has to die. Han, Luke, and eventually Leia, all need to go away for the new generation to rebuild the galaxy and likely the Jedi Order in a way that will make it stronger and less susceptible to the corruption that led to its decay from the inside and its eventual destruction. His death, particularly the way he died, sets up a new path forward, one where goodness wins out and has a lasting hold. He died not in battle against a foe, but rather on his own terms. At peace with what he's done, at peace with the next phase of his life, and ready to guide the next generation not as a figurehead, but as a spirit.

The characterization of Luke in this movie was amazing, in my opinion. He showed the "never meet your heroes" gruffness at the beginning, but by the end, he sobered up and saved the kids from burning building. Or whatever analogy you want. Luke is human and has never been portrayed more human than in this movie.

The Last Jedi was expertly crafted and put together in a way that was deep, layered, and made you think about not only the movie and the Star Wars universe, but our own internal struggles with weakness, hate, and anger.

Also, two things you mentioned at the beginning:
Who cares about Snoke? He's a shadowy figure, a red herring, just like Communism. He's not the story. He's just a hurdle for Kylo Ren's rise to power. A vehicle for his hate. Ignoring Snoke's past was not only the right thing to do, it was the result of a very painful lesson learned from the grueling garbage of the prequel trilogy--not every story needs to be told. At the end of the original trilogy, do you recall being upset that you didn't know more about Palpatine? What was his favorite color? Favorite food? How long did it take him to get those robes off to go to the bathroom? I mean, I assume Vader just went right into his costume, no way that thing had a fly. No, of course not. You didn't care--because Palpatine wasn't the story. Vader was even only barely the story. And Lucas decided to tell that story over three very poorly written, poorly acted (by A-list actors, no less), and poorly done movies.

And as for Rey's parents, the fact that they were nobodies buried in an unmarked grave is HUGE for phase of the story we're in. Rey isn't dynastic--she doesn't have these powers as birthright, she doesn't have the weight of expectation, and most importantly, she's not trapped by the failures of the past. And on top of that, it wasn't obvious--everyone who was like "It's so obvious, she's Luke's daughter, that's stupid" are all of a sudden very upset that it wasn't obvious and that she's not Luke's daughter. If she were a Jedi legacy, as it were, her story immediately becomes less impactful. The point is that anyone--any person, regardless of their birth, regardless of their background, regardless of their circumstances--can have a marked impact on the world. They can literally become the most important person in the world. Anyone. And of course, we're not talking, on an allegorical level, about becoming the actual most important person on the world, but rather it gives credence to the idea that everyone has value, no matter their walk of life. If she were Qui Gon Jinn's granddaughter or something, it becomes way less impactful. She got this information from an unreliable source, so I hope they don't walk it back in the next movie, because I will be highly disappointed.

[Steppy]

I bet you can't put a defence up for Leia's space flying scene !!!

[Raza]

I bet you can't put a defence up for Leia's space flying scene !!!

Canonically, sure. Jedi have been able to pull things, use super speed, and other kinds of physical manipulations using the force, so that was just an extension of that power. Visually, it was a bit silly.

[is that my watch]

I bet you can't put a defence up for Leia's space flying scene !!!

you forget he's a lawyer

[is that my watch]

Canonically, .

whats the pope got to do with it

[Perseus]

It appears to me that you found deep meaning in parts of the movie that many people found silly or even ridiculous--any chance you're an existentialist? I think they could have accomplished the same themes in a way that didn't feel cheap to the audience. For example, Rose going kamikaze on Finn for the sake of love could have easily killed both of them and left the resistance to die. Many people, myself included, thought that moment was so incredibly stupid that it overshadowed any message they were trying to send.

Many ideas and themes felt forced rather than organic. Another example, when the audience last saw Luke he was the embodiment of hope through three movies. He looked at arguably the most evil man on the planet (Darth Vader) and said I know there is good in you. Now, with almost zero backstory, he's willing to kill family members in their sleep? I believe people are upset because the movie failed to convincingly show the audience what brought Luke to that place. It was jarring and unfamiliar. If this was just some random character, rather than an icon, I don't think anyone would have cared.

We'll have to check in after watching Solo.

[Raza]

It appears to me that you found deep meaning in parts of the movie that many people found silly or even ridiculous--any chance you're an existentialist? I think they could have accomplished the same themes in a way that didn't feel cheap to the audience. For example, Rose going kamikaze on Finn for the sake of love could have easily killed both of them and left the resistance to die. Many people, myself included, thought that moment was so incredibly stupid that it overshadowed any message they were trying to send.

Were her actions reckless? Absolutely. As were the actions of basically every Resistance member that had screen time. Even joining the Resistance is in itself a reckless act. Did she save Finn's life and ultimately strengthen the Resistance because they're both alive to be a part of it? Yes. I don't see anyone complaining that John McClane jumping off the roof of a building with a fire hose tied around his crotch was stupid, because it worked and he would have died otherwise.

Many ideas and themes felt forced rather than organic. Another example, when the audience last saw Luke he was the embodiment of hope through three movies. He looked at arguably the most evil man on the planet (Darth Vader) and said I know there is good in you. Now, with almost zero backstory, he's willing to kill family members in their sleep? I believe people are upset because the movie failed to convincingly show the audience what brought Luke to that place. It was jarring and unfamiliar. If this was just some random character, rather than an icon, I don't think anyone would have cared.

This embodiment of hope thing is kind of new for me. I've always known Luke to be kind of a whiny guy who stumbled into heroism--just before he was about to join the Empire, lest we forget. Luke was resigned to his life under the Empire, and not only that, he was going to enlist and become a TIE fighter or something. Before learning that Vader was his father, mind you, he was all about killing him--that's why he failed in the jungle and why his face was in Vader's helmet. Remember, Luke isn't a real, proper Jedi, not like the ones we learned of in the prequel trilogy. He was taught a sort of truncated Jedi curriculum and then left early, another failure on his part. Then he finished up his training on his own before deciding he could save Vader, partially because he wanted to save his dad.

Luke turning on Ben was jarring because it was supposed to be. Failure, as I mentioned earlier, was a major theme of the movie, as was the destruction of hero figures. Luke's momentary lapse of judgment is what makes him human. Ultimately, he stopped himself, but it was too late. We've all been tempted by that doughnut your coworkers brought in, but we've never had the world at stake over it. He saw in Ben the possibility of being the most power Sith in history; he's way stronger than Vader ever was, as shown in the movies. I mean, he stopped a laser blast in midair--that's way more impressive than teleconferencing a force-choke. Frankly, the logical thing to do would be to kill Ben in his sleep. It's cold, it's logical, but if there's a real chance that the kid would become the greatest evil the galaxy has ever known, how would it not cross your mind? How could you possibly not consider it? It's a far more definite course of avoidance than trying to appease him with hugs and teddy bears--or whatever they do in the Jedi Academy for people that could kill all freedom in the known world. But it's not the hero's course of action, hence his destruction, even though he eventually took the hero's path. Failure, destruction of heroes, and rebirth were all important themes of the movie and of the overarching story--that's why the old Jedi texts had to burn. Even Yoda knew it.

The Last Jedi was a very deep movie that had new kinds of losses for the heroes. It wasn't just tangible losses like Han in being frozen in carbonite and Luke's hand being cut off, the heroes actually lost the structures around heroism itself. What's left is just pure humanity, locked in a struggle, trying to be heroic in the face of incredible odds. What we're seeing is the change from the mythical hero, the Herculean, infallible myth, to the street level hero, the regular person who stands up in the moments that standing counts.

Also, I wouldn't put much stock in the fan score of The Last Jedi. It, like Force Awakens, was the target of a campaign against the movie, largely by racists and misogynists who were upset about a black stormtrooper and a female protagonist, where they flooded sites with negative reviews.

Star Wars is in a classic no-win situation right now. Fanboys are haters deep in their hearts. They criticized The Force Awakens for rehashing A New Hope. They had hands hovering above keyboards ready to skewer The Last Jedi for being Empire Strikes Back again. And when it wasn't--when it asked its viewers to think deeply about the film and challenged them to see the Star Wars universe for what it was and not what the rose-colored nostalgia glasses made them think it was, they got skewered for that. Star Wars fanboys/haters remind me a lot of the Call of Duty community. All they do is wait for the new installment so they can hate on it, buy it, then hate on it some more, either for being the same or different.

We'll have to check in after watching Solo.

I'm not sure I'll be as passionate about that movie, based on the reviews I've read. That might be the summer popcorn-flick, sort of turn your brain off film people are asking for.


For the record, there's depth in the MCU too, but you do have to work a little bit harder to find it. Certain movies have it--The Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Black Panther, for example, are full of deep themes that tear at the very soul of humanity, but then you have other movies that are just fun, well made action movies. Ant-Man, for example. I loved Ant-Man, but it's cinematically very easily digestible. It didn't challenge viewers. The MCU doesn't do that much, but when it does, it's great. The MCU is too big to take risks, for the most part. Rian Johnson's film decided not to be shackled by the franchise and take the story where it needed to go, not just set up the next billion dollar blockbuster and sell more toys.

Slate did a good article comparing The Last Jedi and Infinity War (and I loved Infinity War, by the way, I'm all-in on the MCU, and its fight against its greatest villain, Tony Stark), if you're interested: https://slate.com/culture/2018/05/av...ranchises.html

[Perseus]

Slate did a good article comparing The Last Jedi and Infinity War (and I loved Infinity War, by the way, I'm all-in on the MCU, and its fight against its greatest villain, Tony Stark), if you're interested: https://slate.com/culture/2018/05/av...ranchises.html

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion but the author failed to address that one movie was universally loved by the audience and the other was largely hated. Between the dislike for The Last Jedi and loosing money on Solo it's widely believed that Disney wanted to move on from Kathleen Kennedy. Lucky for her the people Disney reached out to didn't want the job.

[Raza]

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion but the author failed to address that one movie was universally loved by the audience and the other was largely hated. Between the dislike for The Last Jedi and loosing money on Solo it's widely believed that Disney wanted to move on from Kathleen Kennedy. Lucky for her the people Disney reached out to didn't want the job.

Depends on who you want to believe. I won’t pretend that Last Jedi was as loved as Infinity War (and I feel that article I posted addressed the difference in how it was received by the laity), but there’s also this:

https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/1...es-review-bomb

A lot of frail white male egos sitting behind keyboards—the internet version of a mall cop (small men with small power wielding it as largely as they can). Can’t stand the idea of a strong female character or a black hero. Infinity War was largely still the Tony Stark show—the kind of comforting hero (though he’s really a villain) to a certain kind of person.

As disappointing as The Ringer usually is, this is a pretty good article comparing the two and it addresses one of the reasons “fans” were unhappy with Last Jedi—it challenged them and subverted their expectations when they wanted to see a new skin on a movie they’ve already seen.

https://www.theringer.com/movies/201...t-jedi-endings