2019 - 07 - 31
Hi, my issue is with 362708231100. I spoke to you yesterday. The seller wished to refund the money and have me send it again. You advised me not to. I told them no and to resolve whatever their issue was with paypal. They have now cancelled and refunded.
08:45:43 UTC Juliana
Welcome to eBay Concierge Chat! My name is Juliana, and I'm so happy you're here. Please give me just a moment to review your request.
08:45:58 UTC Juliana
Hey Matthew, how are you?
08:46:43 UTC maph
I'm fine, but I'm stating to be a bit worried - can you also review my conversation with Patrick from yesterday?
08:46:54 UTC Juliana
Absolutely. Do you have a few minutes to wait with me?
08:47:42 UTC maph
And review my emails. There are two threads of them, but the bottom line is the seller has refunded the money and is asking me to resend by bank transfer.
08:49:41 UTC Juliana
What a unique situation. So just to make sure I understand, you have received a refund for an item you have in your possession.
08:50:12 UTC maph
Yes. And the sale has been cancelled, as far as I can see.
08:52:09 UTC maph
The seller wishes me to repay them and has, as you can see suggested I send a bank transfer. Obviously I want them to get paid. However, when they asked to refund me I explicitly asked them not to on your advice and also because there is a fair bit
08:52:50 UTC maph
of chatter on the web about scams that involve refunds that are reversed once a second payment is received, especially as a bank transfer.
08:54:51 UTC Juliana
I see exactly what you mean, and you're 100% correct. For this very reason, we have very hard lines of what is considered acceptable as a seller and how they can receive payment as well as what we will protect.
08:55:53 UTC Juliana
It is also still correct that if you choose to pay them again there would be no eBay protection. More importantly, I want you to know that you are in no way obligated to do so.
08:56:06 UTC maph
Ok, so how do we proceed. As it stands, I have both the watch and the money, which is wrong. I'm keen for the seller to be paid, but I'm not keen to get scammed
08:56:59 UTC maph
I may not be legally obligated, but I am morally obligated to make sure they get the payment for the watch. I would assume there is a mechanism for managing this?
08:57:09 UTC Juliana
Unfortunately, rather then following the advice eBay provided, the seller decided to risk losing the protection and take other steps themselves. This is not something we will hold you to or require that you accept.
08:57:44 UTC maph
To be fair the seller didn't get the advice. I did. I only passed it on as you can see.
08:58:12 UTC maph
Right now, I don't seem to have much choice. The money is back in my account.
08:58:53 UTC maph
And I don't know how to pay them the money without risking a scam. However I assume that you or ebay can?
08:59:46 UTC Juliana
If you do want to re-purchase, we would advise that you resend through paypal only. Even then the eBay coverage will not apply
09:01:10 UTC maph
You will understand why I'm not keen to do that, lose protection and potentially be scammed. Can the seller cancel the reimbursement once I have paid them?
09:01:23 UTC maph
(the second time)?
09:02:10 UTC Juliana
We appreciate that you want to do the right thing here and pay for the item you have, however we simply cannot recommend that you comply with the seller's requests, as their request is violating several eBay policies.
09:04:32 UTC maph
I get that, but that isn't my fault. I've done the right thing to the letter. Despite that, this situation has occurred. Are you telling me that you cannot resolve it without me placing myself at risk or effectively stealing the watch. Neither is
09:04:45 UTC maph
satisfactory.
09:05:58 UTC maph
Surely there must be a mechanism within PayPal for managing this?
09:07:00 UTC Juliana
At this point we would usually advise sending the item back, or waiting for the seller to accept another payment back to the same email address.
09:08:40 UTC maph
I don't think the seller is being terribly cooperative and I'd rather keep the watch if possible.
09:09:11 UTC maph
Cant you talk to the seller and try to sort out what to do a little more formally?
09:09:29 UTC maph
CAn a refund be cancelled?
09:11:33 UTC Juliana
Understood. In that case, we would advise keeping the item and the refund you were issued. The refund cannot be cancelled.
09:12:16 UTC Juliana
The seller has forfeited the guarantee/protection of eBay by violating policy and putting you in this situation.
09:13:12 UTC Juliana
Since we cannot undo this, nor can we protect any new payment, unless you want to return the item, you are not obligated to re-pay and we cannot assist your request to re-pay.
09:13:35 UTC maph
I'm not prepared to do that because keeping both the money and the watch would simply be stealing and, even if I were prepared to do that on moral grounds, I'm pretty sure would break UK law
09:14:03 UTC maph
Can Paypal?
09:14:16 UTC Juliana
The refund cannot be undone.
09:15:03 UTC maph
Right. So is there any way I can resend that money without putting myself at risk or losing protection?
09:15:38 UTC Juliana
You will not be breaking any laws, Matthew. This was done by the seller. Our protection to you includes not giving any advise or recommending anything that we will not stand by, such as a repayment. The seller will be expected to count this as a business loss for violating the policy and going against our recommendation to correct the issue themselves
09:16:18 UTC Juliana
I know it sounds harsh, but the lines are pretty firm when it comes to these "off-ebay" situations
09:17:24 UTC Juliana
No. ANY way you re-send the payment now, will be outside of eBay's coverage. That's exactly what I mean. We cannot and will not ask that you do that because if something happens, we will not protect the transaction.
09:17:33 UTC Juliana
It was considered resolved/void/canceled when the seller decided to refund you.
09:19:39 UTC maph
I see. So you are seriously telling me to keep both a watch and the money that paid for it?
09:21:41 UTC Juliana
I am telling you that eBay cannot protect another transaction/repayemnt once the seller voluntarily refunds the sale. I appreciate your integrity. I respect that more than you know. I know you want to do the right thing. At this point, it is up to you to decide what you would like to do, understanding the risks and loss of protection.
09:22:55 UTC Juliana
As a consumer myself, I would strongly caution any consideration you may be having to send any kind of wire transfer or money order....paypal email personal payment is the safest way to go. That way you at least have paypal protection.
09:23:19 UTC maph
I see. So can paypal make sure I don't get scammed if I pay the seller again through paypal?
09:23:36 UTC Juliana
That is my personal opinion, not an eBay recommendation, since eBay cannot recommend either way.
09:23:37 UTC Juliana
Yes
09:23:48 UTC maph
Sorry. Cross post.
09:23:51 UTC Juliana
Well, PayPal has their own protections
09:24:26 UTC Juliana
It might be a good idea to reach out to them and know the boundaries of that coverage before you make any decisions.
09:24:38 UTC maph
I may well like to think of myself as moral, if as fallible as anyone. the idea of leaving someone else out of pocket by such a large amount make me feel a buit sick.
09:25:14 UTC maph
However, i don't want my doing the right thing to be opening me up to a scam.
09:25:40 UTC Juliana
I understand. Truly. Unfortunately, the day & age we live in requires that from where I stand, we utilize much caution in making exceptions.
09:26:12 UTC Juliana
Exactly. I am 100% on your side here. Just unfortunate you have yo worry so much about doing the right thing at all. In my opinion
09:27:03 UTC maph
I don't blame you. The internet is pretty bleak these days. However, the fact is that we all have to try to do the right thing and there's no way I'm not paying for something.
09:28:50 UTC maph
Right. So what can you do? can you reach out to the seller and explain the circumstances or explain the issue to paypal and work out the best way to move forward.
09:29:12 UTC Juliana
Just please please make sure you research all protection options before you do. Is all I ask. From one human to another.
09:29:34 UTC Juliana
We cannot advise the seller, just like we cannot advise you. This will be between you, the seller and paypal at this point.
09:30:02 UTC Juliana
PayPal can educate you and the seller on their friends and famaily payments protection, and you can decide from there.
09:30:28 UTC maph
Thanks, that's kind of you. I must say that while the policies seem pretty harsh, you are putting a very human face on them.
09:31:34 UTC maph
However, the practicality is that I need to pay for the watch - surely I can do it as a paying for something payment - friends and family is another route used by scammers I think.
09:32:29 UTC Juliana
Exactly why I hesitate in recommending re-payment at all.
09:32:50 UTC Juliana
It may be worth it to talk to paypal to learn more about protections they offer.
09:33:05 UTC maph
CAn you explain the possible scams available here?
09:33:25 UTC Juliana
It will not be re-paid for through eBay.
09:33:32 UTC Juliana
Possible scams?
09:34:10 UTC maph
Well, having refunded me. If I pay them again, what can they do?
09:34:24 UTC maph
to rip me off?
09:34:55 UTC maph
Paypal don't offer the concierge service and I've struggled with them in the past. What route would you recommend?
09:34:57 UTC Juliana
That is a great question for PayPal
09:35:28 UTC maph
Ok. I get the picture. There's basically nothing more you can do here. Correct?
09:35:53 UTC maph
Can you pass the issue over to paypal so I don't have to explain it all over again?
09:36:08 UTC maph
Or send them some sort of heads up?
09:37:24 UTC Juliana
I wish I could, Matthew but we have no way to do so. They will only speak to you directly, we are unable to contact them about you or on your behalf. I assure you I have tried I will say that they are starting to roll out the chat option to some of their accounts. That might be less of a headache and worth looking for within your account
09:38:42 UTC maph
Ok that's something. Is there anything else I can do withing ebay, can you escalate it to a level where hands might be less tied or is that it?
09:38:58 UTC maph
In which case where do I look on paypal?
09:41:33 UTC Juliana
Once the seller refunded you, eBay's involvement was permanently severed in regards to this item. No level of eBay will be able to do speak to this, as PayPal is separate and has very firm lines of account verification that permit only the user themselves to discuss that account.
09:42:10 UTC maph
Should I advise the seller to contact you or would that be pointless?
09:42:52 UTC Juliana
If they need confirmation that we will not protect repayment, I suppose that could help. Otherwise we would be referring them also to PayPal
09:43:57 UTC maph
Right, that would be a start. Is there a particular adress to refer them to or link to pass on?
09:45:25 UTC Juliana
No. They can contact eBay through following the "contact us" steps within ebay, and the same steps within their paypal account will take them to paypal.
09:46:15 UTC maph
Fair enough.
09:46:50 UTC maph
Ok, if I decided to send the damned watch back, would the return be through ebay channels and protected as usual?
09:48:26 UTC maph
sorry to keep asking daft questions. I'm just after a resolution.
09:48:26 UTC Juliana
No, however we would offer to reimburse you for the cost of the label once it is delivered back to the seller, crediting your paypal
09:48:33 UTC Juliana
You're ok
09:49:08 UTC maph
Cool. Thanks very much.
09:50:50 UTC maph
I think that's about all I can think of anyway. Than you so much for your time and patience. I appreciate it. And I especially appreciate the human advice.
09:51:30 UTC maph
It's an increasingly rare thing these days.
09:51:32 UTC Juliana
My pleasure. Truly
09:51:53 UTC Juliana
I just wish I had happier resolutions to offer, is all
09:52:03 UTC Juliana
But I respect you too much to lead you astray
09:53:02 UTC Juliana
I do sincerely wish you the best of luck with this.
09:53:09 UTC maph
That's fine, ebay has worked out least worst policies over the years and it's sensible to follow them - sadly good business and The Good are not quite the same.
09:54:22 UTC maph
My experience is that luck tends to happen when you prepare carefully. As such I'll be doing my best to make sure that this is resolved in a way that leaves everything as it should be.
09:54:46 UTC maph
And thanks for your help in doing that.
09:54:52 UTC Juliana
I call those "good karma points"
09:55:24 UTC Juliana
I hope it was helpful. It's been my pleasure.
09:56:12 UTC maph
It has. And I suspect it's done your karma no harm either
Cheers, Matt
09:57:27 UTC Juliana
lol. Cheers Matt. Thanks for contacting eBay
09:57:56 UTC maph
Thanks for being the human face of ebay.
09:58:45 UTC Juliana
Anytime!
09:59:13 UTC
Chat ended by Juliana