quality brands that no longer exist

[Seriously]

Looks a nice watch

Have you tried emailing them to get the 'gen' on it , you might be able to decide based on the quality of answer.

http://roamer-watches.info/gallery.shtml
Same movement?: http://roamer-watches.info/features/...ry.shtml#_self

[Dan R]

I was rather hoping that by avoiding these pictures for a couple of days I would go off them....unfortunately not. This one they say is NOS.

Any idea what the movement is, where is comes in the general pecking order?

Browsing through their photos I did wonder if the pictures are over treated. They have the same unreal quality that manufacturer's stock photos have.

I'd love to expand on this, but the resources are limited. The Wiki piece seems to have been written by someone from the current Roamer company. My "Complete Price Guide to Watches" (Gilbert/Shugart) shows only one Roamer, which is not the style you showed, and tops out at $125 for excellent condition.

As for pecking order, I am weird about that. For example, many say the Hamilton RR pocketwatches were among the best, yet I have held several of the lesser known brands and can't see it. Kind of like the well known brands that survived the 60s and 70s. Many can point out this movement or that, but IMO, they were little different than those of other brands that did not make it. Realize that I am not making broad strokes here. There are many good movements out there.

Roamer made a decent movement, but the current company is not the one that built that watch. This comes down to is it worth it to you. It is a wonderful looking watch. It does reach to me to. Just glad I have other vintage watches to keep me from looking more at this one.

But yes, their photos are a little over the edge. I wonder how and why they do that.

Dan

[Rdenney]

They also have a lot of pristine bare dials, which makes me think they have a dial shop squirreled away somewhere to make their watches look good. That heightens my nervousness.

Another site that is a bit less too-good-to-be-true is Zaf Basha's Classicwatch.com. Not extremely cheap but seems to be honest about dial repainted, shows real pictures, and says when they serviced the movements. He's also a bona fide expert on vintage JLCs. He also usefully leaves old listings accessible to a Google search, as does Roland Ranfft.

For me, the vintage brands that are the safest are not the cheapest. Well-known vintage brands seem to fall into four categories:

1. Brands now better than they were in vintage times, inflating prices and attracting fakes, redials, and marriages. Girard-Perregaux is the poster child for this category--their fortunes have improved most sharply--but even JLC nudges its way here just a bit, as does Zenith and Omega. Glashutte fits here. Rolex beyond measure, and the current haute brands fit here, too. Even less visible brands like Blancpain, Ebel and Eterna fit here because of their high prices in the post-quartz era. One has to be very careful in this category. Exceptionally good deals are rare and risky. Demand here is high because people see this as an affordable path to a brand otherwise out of reach.

2. Watches that were more premium then than now, but are still currently well-known. Longines is the most visible example here. Movado and Tissot are also examples. Prices are less than above, and this is the safest way to find something decent for a good price, but one still has to be careful. Inversions are possible here. Longines was better than GP back in the 60's, for example--it was a premium manufacture while GP used good-but-common ebauches.

3. Watches that were premium then but are mostly invisible now. My favorite in this category is Universal Genève, but it includes brands like Cyma, Lemania, Excelsior Park, Gallet, and so on. This is the shortest path to a sleeper deal on a premium watch, but current invisibility means research is more difficult. Inversions are expected here. UG was considered a poor man's Patek, for example, and the brand was distributed in the USA by the Sterns. It was definitely more respected than GP, especially as the date pushes back to the Martel era of the 50's and before.

4. Watches that were less expensive then but are in deceased or zombie brands now. Zodiac and Favre-Leuba are two in my collection that fit here. These will be the cheapest options, but also require some knowledge. Ranfft's watch sales database helps here for identifying what original examples look like. The risk here is getting a watch that was crap in the 60's, and still is. (Favre-Leuba is probably a poor example because of so many Mumbaitis examples). Individual watches might push into another category, like the Zodiac Sea Wolf.

Rick "who has examples from each of these categories" Denney

[Der Amf]

Thank you for encouraging me to be sceptical.

Decided to stare at the dial for a while. First of all realised the indices are only painted on, not embedded. Secondly the way the 6 is slightly clipped by the small seconds.... thirdly the line underscoring Roamer is not horizontal - pick up your phone and look down the line. The R also looks smudged.

My problem with redials is not so much the inauthenticity as the inability of those doing it to do it as well as the original manufacturer.

[Matt]

Smiths - You still see minor variations on the watch that went up Everest going for the price of a decent meal - with wine these days ... unfortunately.



and a profusion of others (take care though, Smiths used Radium...)



I personally think that Favre Leuba are one of the most misunderstood Swiss Brands - and also one of the oldest





I recently saw one of these movements sell for £800 in a pretty Tudor/ Not in an equally pretty FL it will not.


Favre Leuba are also the cheapest way into the GP352, the first modern quartz and still arguably the best.



and were playing with two barrel winding well before a certain well known Swiss brand... Pretty huh?



Seiko is still an easy route into unappreciated little gems - if ever there was a brand that rewards even a little bit of knowledge it's Seiko - so much stuff of such a wide range of quality. Sure, they still exist, but the prices don't really reflect that.



I'm in complete agreement with Mr Denney here, In fact, I know who copied whose movement! - here's a battered Universal Polerouter's extraordinarily pretty movement.



Hiding behind a plain, but nicely executed dial. Still not that far into three figures, which is hard to believe.



another very well hidden bargain - and here's why:



Hidden inside is an all invar, all American, Free sprung balance blinder of a movement - chronometer style accuracy, whisper silent winding and a joy to work on. I'll say that again ALL INVAR (apart from the glycadur etc bits) - name a Swiss brand that doesn't use routinely use boring old brass with the expansion coefficient of, well, brass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invar

The only things I have with more Invar in them is the pendulums for my master clocks.

Then of course, there's Bulova...

How much did you just pay for your Sub? because in trials, the U.S. Navy preferred a Bulova. Still around for a twentieth of the price.



Not a bad movement either - Schilde, but played with.



And also available in the 'Half Damien' -Only 333 rather than 666 water resisance, but still a 14k bezel for less than the value of the gold and a bit of a chunky monkey.



Then there's BWC - Crazy name, crazy watches - So, that's a 100m dive chrongraph with a 1340 movement, rotating bezel and a reinforced hesalite crystal!



But I'm still drawn to the understated charms of Certina.



Especially after the lacquer has failed!



The later roamer start to get really funky!




Personally, I love ebay, but it's often just a matter of finding the right watch shop. I find this one, run by the Knights of
St Dennison in the Armenian quarter of Valetta to be just the ticket, with a lovely atmosphere and bargains galore.

*joke*

[Der Amf]

Yes I've two vintage Seikos already, both of which cost far less than the subsequent servicing/crystal/strap attention I gave them. I would like to get an early 70s Hi Beat Lord Marvel, but unfortunately I've already decided exactly which watch I want and I'm not hopeful about tracking it down:

[Rdenney]

The auto in Matt's Favre-Leuba is an early ETA, but another auto for which they were famous used the AS1687 ebauche. They called it the caliber 1152 as I recall. Zodiac called the same movement a caliber 70, 72, 76, or 86, or 88 depending on features and beat rate. It's also a GP 32 and an Ebel 214. GP first turned it into a high-beat chronometer movement, as did Favre-Leuba and (famously) Zodiac. I paid just a little over a hundred bucks for this caliber 88 high-beat (36,000 bph) Zodiac:



My Zodiac Aerospace GMT and my vintage Ebel also contain AS1687 ebauches (but these were more expensive):





All of these are in the wearable 35-36mm size range. That's a problem with vintage--many are in the 30-33 size class and are just a bit comical on my 8-1/4" wrist. My Universal Genève is a beauty inside and out, but only my wife can wear it.



Rick "who once thought to pick up all example of the automatic version of AS1687/1688, but there are too many" Denney

[Matt]

Note to self - Zodiac GMT on the buy list!

More importantly, I gave up on WUS a year or two back, because I hadn't had an original row or learned something new in a while. Even without Rick's robustly contrary (to me at least) excellence, I'm having a whale of a time. It's nice to see someone who also seems to buy far too many watches on grounds of interest, learning and aesthetics.

[Rdenney]

Note to self - Zodiac GMT on the buy list!

More importantly, I gave up on WUS a year or two back, because I hadn't had an original row or learned something new in a while. Even without Rick's robustly contrary (to me at least) excellence, I'm having a whale of a time. It's nice to see someone who also seems to buy far too many watches on grounds of interest, learning and aesthetics.

I suspect I arrived at WUS about the time you left. But had you seen me there, you'd know that I only argue with people I respect. It's not fun otherwise, and we don't learn anything.

Be careful of the Aerospace GMT, though. At 35.5mm, a dress watch is fine but a watch with a rotating bezel looks mighty small. I think I'll put it on maybe a rubber strap--it might not look so tiny.

Rick "have a beer on me" Denney

[Matt]

Sadly, I have a addiction to simple handwind movements and an abiding love of the thirty series Omega and the 27CS Smiths movements in many of their guises, which tends to keep a lot of my choices sub 35mm. In fact, when I'm not thinking about it, my comfort rotation is usually between this:


and this

Not so much watches as slippers.

But both sub 35mm - I'm not fussed.