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Thread: Hmph!

  1. #1

    Hmph!

    A few months ago I bought this Stoic:

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    The idea was to have an automatic 'beater'/GADA -- and it totally fulfilled, if not exceeded, my expectations, loved it for what it was.

    I knew it was one of numerous variations on Mark XVIII and I was fine with it, why wouldn't Speake-Marin (or his associates?) have his take on what basically belongs to the public domain?

    The plot started thickening when last February in Berlin I tried on the 'mini LPP':

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    I was like, OK so Stoic took from IWC more than I thought, but at least they came up with a cool colour.

    And then, several days ago, I was disappointed to find this:

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    I don't like blatant copies, but the problem is, the Stoic offers a package that I can't find anywhere else. The two IWC minis above come in 36mm, which is too small for me. IWC's 40mm models don't appeal to me at all, and I didn't like how they wore on my wrist when I tried them on. Plus I wouldn't spend that kind of money on an IWC anyway, which I think in their steel models don't punch above Hamilton, Mido etc.

    Mark XVIII variations from other brands don't offer styles and sizes that would interest me. I think 39mm sunburst Lacos come the closest, but with the flat dial without the 'step', I still find them a little boring.

    I also think that quite accidentally the Stoic ticks a lot of boxes I was trying to fill when looking for an Alpinist alternative. For now I've decided to keep and enjoy it, and at the same time keep an eye for a more original replacement.

    I do feel a little silly, though.
    Last edited by rodia77; Jul 17, 2020 at 05:13 PM.

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  3. #2
    Moderator G-Shock/Digital Sedi's Avatar
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    Not as silly as what I have done with buying an interesting looking Corgeut only to find out later that it was a blatant copy of a "Dietrich OT1" -- funny enough, they use the same movement.
    In case of the B-watch-design, it has probably all been done before. Even Citizen sells copies of IWCs. Laco copied the Stowa Ikarus with the grey dial. And considering that much of the "B-watch-history" is nonsense anyway, like the "original 5 makers", of which a few existed for some time merely as a box full of old files in a garage somewhere before someone "resurrected" them. I wouldn't worry too much. Nobody notices anyway. Maybe don't wear it for a black tie event.
    Cheers, Sedi

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  5. #3
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    They're all good looking watches to me, I don't much care what name is on the dial, sounds like you picked the right one so I'd say keep enjoying it without any hesitation

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  7. #4
    Porous Membrane skywatch's Avatar
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    You said it yourself above in the post: it's basically a public domain design. Apart from a handful of very original watch dials (which many people find polarizing) almost every classic watch design is public domain. Since the logo isn't a copy, you shouldn't feel awkward about wearing the Stoic.
    Too many watches, not enough wrists.

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  9. #5
    I agree with others. I wouldn't consider Laco or Stowa or whoever it is today an original either. The dials were made to a specification right? None of the so called original manufacturers actually designed it was my understanding.

    Mine are sterile but made by San Martin.

    They meet my needs. Sapphire crystals, lume better than I hoped for, 200m wr, and NH35 movements. The only thing I would change is adding the San Martin shield logo which I really like the look of.

    On looks alone knowing nothing else about it I would be happy with the one you bought.

    Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk

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  11. #6
    Thanks everyone for all your kind words.

    However, the problem I have with the Stoic is not that it's a variation of Mark XVIII, but that it's a 1:1 knock-off of IWC's very specific take on Mark XVIII. Well, it has an improved case compared to the IWC, but still.

    Also, I have no idea why an accomplished watchmaker that Speake-Marin is tie his name to an enterprise like this.

  12. #7
    Moderator G-Shock/Digital Sedi's Avatar
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    That was clear to me. Like I said, I once bought a "fake without the brand name" without knowing it. And it was much worse than yours because it was a really unique design. But since nobody looks at my watch anyway, I don't care all that much. And I can't sell it. It also made me rather suspicious of the whole "Corgeut"-brand as they seem to make fakes and sell them with their own brand but probably also with the name of the original on it. Like I suspect Parnis was doing in the beginning as well. I still like the design and wear it occasionally. And apart from myself, nobody knows. But should I beat myself up over it? I don't think so. Should I appease the "Gods of horology" by sacrificing my "Corgeut CT1" on the altars of "unique design"? Naa. And your case is comparatively "mild" so to speak. A raised chapter ring? Wow, they certainly needed thousands of design experts to come up with that. And who knows, maybe there was some obscure unknown brand who did something like that before? Maybe even a vintage maker from the days when everybody bought their dials from the same factory.
    Let's look at another example -- Nomos. They bulit a whole brand around a design they never invented. In fact there is a "Lange und Söhne" much older that used it long before them. And back in the day, many brands used it. Then Nomos even managed (I wonder how) to get that design copyrighted. I looked at the drawings for the copyright application (those are public and rather interesting). It looked like a school child had drawn a watch.
    So let's face it, there is nothing new under the sun, when it comes to watch design. Or not much really. Especially not in the field of "B-watches" or Divers, etc. I guess if there was some kind of copyright on that design, IWC woud do something about it. But I suspect it is not much of an "invention" to be worthy of copyright protection in the 1st place.
    Cheers, Sedi

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  14. #8
    Moderator G-Shock/Digital Sedi's Avatar
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    By the way, I don't like stealing designs, sure. But in Germany for instance, it's illegal to import them for sale but it wouldn't be illegal to own and wear one for private purposes. Of course, we as watch nerds should maybe have a higher standard. But there is no need to be more "catholic than the pope" IMO. So as long as they can legally sell those watches and IWC doesn't care or has no legal means to stop it -- why should you care? Yes, I maybe wouldn't buy a second one. Like I wouldn't buy another "Corgeut CT1" for myself. But I am not losing any sleep over it.
    Cheers, Sedi

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  16. #9
    Yep, I remembered your Corgeut even before starting this thread and I remembered I'd commented on that case in a similar vein to what I'm saying now. (I couldn't remember the brand's name correctly and find those comments, though ). Well, as there is no 'original' to replace the Stoic, I think I'll give myself some slack for now and wear it, and only get rid of it if I figure I feel bad doing that.

  17. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rodia77 View Post
    Plus I wouldn't spend that kind of money on an IWC anyway, which I think in their steel models don't punch above Hamilton, Mido etc.
    Coincidentally, Hans the watchmaker kind of comments on this issue in today's vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9cmbR9B-n0 (the very first question discussed, about 1:10).

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