The cars and bikes thread!

**Seriously** · Apr 12, 2016, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Domo

I've always been a bit of a Volvo fan. I can't believe they canned the C30, the post update 2.5L one was the coolest/best looking hatch you could buy.

Would still be a volvo though ,with a volvo driver behind the wheel ..................

**93EXCivic** · Apr 12, 2016, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by thewalrus

VW lost me forever with the TDI issue. And I'm digging the newest Volvos.

VW lost me forever with the complete and total pieces of shit they built through the '90s and early '00s.

I am looking at you New Beetle. '90s GTi and A4 Jettas... Badly built and engineered, unreliable, terrible driving POSs.

**thewalrus** · Apr 12, 2016, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Raza

You have a higher opinion of companies than I do. The only reason they didn't cheat is because they couldn't figure out how.

I think you're taking it a bit personally, wouldn't you say? They cheated a test to get possibly too-stringent regulations. Toyota and GM have deaths on their hands. GM has a lot, actually. Less recently, so did Ford. Honda spent YEARS covering up massive transmission failures that left their customers stranded and on the hook for brand new transmissions, because of a poor design.

Cars are complicated machinery subject to complicate laws. There isn't a single company that makes cars that hasn't had ****ups in their past.

I have a higher opinion of some companies than others. Companies are like people - and not just legally. You can have some companies that are far more willing to bend the rules to benefit themselves than others. I was choosing between Subaru and Mazda as my current car for just that reason - I couldn't see any major cover-ups or issues associated with those companies. Recalls, sure. Questionable conduct, absolutely. No real scandals, though.

I agree, other companies have messed up. Hid their mistakes. Caused issues for people. Some are far worse than others - GM and the ignition key issue, Ford and the Pinto, Toyota and its acceleration issue... all loom large in the Corporate malevolence side of things. But even those issues were all reflexive - they were inappropriate and immoral reactions to something they never intended to occur. And those companies still deserved to face huge fines, and lose customers as a result. I'm still wary about Ford. And I won't buy a GM. Toyota, I may still buy... though I admit that's inconsistent logic based on my affinity for an 88 Corolla I drove as my first car.

What bothers me about the TDI issue so acutely is it was intentional from day one. This is them directly marketing this car to me as being a clean diesel - something that lets you avoid the potential issues of hybrids (battery construction and disposal being a big one) while getting better performance, and exceptional fuel economy. All while avoiding the nasty emissions issues that plagued earlier engines. There was nothing about that last clause that was true. And they knew it. They knew it when they designed the car, and when they sold it. The entire thing was a scam.

As an aside, I also find the claim that "well, other companies have also been bad" to be incredibly disingenuous. It's like saying "Well, sure Bob slaughtered these 12 people and buried their bodies in a pig farm... but hell Joe over there also killed some people and hid their bodies... so we should give Bob a little slack here."

**thewalrus** · Apr 12, 2016, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by 93EXCivic

VW lost me forever with the complete and total pieces of shit they built through the '90s and early '00s.

I am looking at you New Beetle. '90s GTi and A4 Jettas... Badly built and engineered, unreliable, terrible driving POSs.

My parents had a VW Eurovan. Fantastic vehicle from the perspective of an 11 year old. But the stories about it's reliability from the perspective of a car owner? They had to replace the engine within 4 years of ownership. And there was apparently some recall based around the dash exploding into flames. When they tried to trade it in - the SAME DEALER that sold it to them said, and I quote, "get that POS off my lot". How's that for service?

**Raza** · Apr 12, 2016, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by thewalrus

As an aside, I also find the claim that "well, other companies have also been bad" to be incredibly disingenuous. It's like saying "Well, sure Bob slaughtered these 12 people and buried their bodies in a pig farm... but hell Joe over there also killed some people and hid their bodies... so we should give Bob a little slack here."

That's hardly analogous. It's like if Bob slaughtered those 12 people and Joe killed some other people and hid their bodies, but yeah, they're the only two guys in town that sell milk and bread, so I'd rather buy from Bob than starve to death. Cars are basically a closed market. You can't just make a new one and start driving it. I mean, Tesla is trying, with mixed results.

As for reflexive, I find that disingenuous, especially with regard to the GM switch issue. They were informed of the switch's problem in 2002. In 2005, there were emails saying that a 90 cent per unit fix and a one time $400,000 tooling cost would have fixed the issue. But they decided to gamble with the lives of up to 100 people and the house took them for $4.1 billion instead. What harm did gaming the EPA system do? A few hurt feelings?

There's Joe, there's Bob, and there's Reggie over there...he kicked a guy in the shin once, but that's just as bad as what Joe and Bob did, right?

As for Mazda and Subaru, maybe there are no scandals there that have been uncovered yet. But I'd be really surprised if there are none period; and even more surprised if they haven't benefitted from Ford's and Toyota's coverups (of course Ford's ownership interest has been very small since 2010). Is it possible that there are "good guy" car companies? Yes. But I'm not going to hold my breath or live and die on whether or not a company I like gamed the system. In fact, all this controversy kind of makes me want to buy a Volkswagen even more (though I was originally planning on buying an Evo or STi after school).

**thewalrus** · Apr 12, 2016, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Raza

That's hardly analogous. It's like if Bob slaughtered those 12 people and Joe killed some other people and hid their bodies, but yeah, they're the only two guys in town that sell milk and bread, so I'd rather buy from Bob than starve to death. Cars are basically a closed market. You can't just make a new one and start driving it. I mean, Tesla is trying, with mixed results.

As for reflexive, I find that disingenuous, especially with regard to the GM switch issue. They were informed of the switch's problem in 2002. In 2005, there were emails saying that a 90 cent per unit fix and a one time $400,000 tooling cost would have fixed the issue. But they decided to gamble with the lives of up to 100 people and the house took them for $4.1 billion instead. What harm did gaming the EPA system do? A few hurt feelings?

There's Joe, there's Bob, and there's Reggie over there...he kicked a guy in the shin once, but that's just as bad as what Joe and Bob did, right?

As for Mazda and Subaru, maybe there are no scandals there that have been uncovered yet. But I'd be really surprised if there are none period; and even more surprised if they haven't benefitted from Ford's and Toyota's coverups (of course Ford's ownership interest has been very small since 2010). Is it possible that there are "good guy" car companies? Yes. But I'm not going to hold my breath or live and die on whether or not a company I like gamed the system. In fact, all this controversy kind of makes me want to buy a Volkswagen even more (though I was originally planning on buying an Evo or STi after school).

A few points on this..

1. That first analysis is flawed according to your own, later, point. The analogy is more like this: Bob, VW - killed 10 people, sells bread. Joe, GM / Toyota / Ford - killed 15 people, sells bread. Jane - no evidence that she killed anyone. Maybe punched a guy once, in a bar. She's Mazda or Subaru.You can buy from Jane. You can avoid Bob and Joe. And until there's evidence that Jane did something untoward, there's no rational reason for using an assumption that she did to justifying buying from Bob or Joe.

2. You and I just completely disagree as to the severity of what VW did. This is not 'just gaming the system'. It's not the equivalent of kicking someone in the shins, and it's not just about 'hurt feelings'. It's intentionally, pumping a significant pollutant into the atmosphere at 500% legal limits. And it's being willing to do that with as many cars as you can sell, for as long as you can do it. That is a significant, actual, environmental harm. Worse than that - the thinking behind it is rooted in the same flawed logic that has us believe that we don't impact our environment - that money should, always, trump the environment. That government environmental regulations are inconveniences to be sidestepped - not laws that need to be followed. That is catastrophically harmful thinking. The NOx emissions that were being released were far more worrisome than CO2. Not only are they a far more effective greenhouse case - they are directly, and powerfully, linked to acid rain, ocean acidification, smog, and all sorts of significant health problems. To my mind, what VW did is ethically and legally identical to any slimy corporation illegally dumping toxic waste in the ocean, or knowingly harvesting trees from a protected area.