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Thread: Another very odd ebay experience

  1. #1

    Another very odd ebay experience

    Okay, this is the verbatim transcript of a conversation I had with the Ebay concierge service about a sale that has gone weird. There are several levels as to why I'm posting this. First, any advice on how to proceed in general would be very helpful and second, while the person at the other end of the chat was clearly trying to be decent and even going above and beyond, is it just me or are ebay's policies here simply immoral and, apparently assumed to take precedence over what I really hope is UK law?

    So that's two separate issues.

    Sorry it's so long, but it's a bloody strange read. Any ideas on either issue would be very gratefully received . The watch in question is this early fifties Tudor Oyster:



    Which has a problem or two but was, to my mind, a complete bargain, at £400. It was always a high risk purchase for a number of reasons, but, while I have received the watch, the sale has gone off the rails in a completely unexpected manner that could be entirely innocent, but leads me to worry that the seller is attempting to scam me. I'm looking for the wisdom of IWL on that before I try to sort it out with paypal, who I have found impressively unhelpful in the past.





    2019 - 07 - 31

    Hi, my issue is with 362708231100. I spoke to you yesterday. The seller wished to refund the money and have me send it again. You advised me not to. I told them no and to resolve whatever their issue was with paypal. They have now cancelled and refunded.



    08:45:43 UTC Juliana
    Welcome to eBay Concierge Chat! My name is Juliana, and I'm so happy you're here. Please give me just a moment to review your request.
    08:45:58 UTC Juliana
    Hey Matthew, how are you?
    08:46:43 UTC maph

    I'm fine, but I'm stating to be a bit worried - can you also review my conversation with Patrick from yesterday?
    08:46:54 UTC Juliana
    Absolutely. Do you have a few minutes to wait with me?
    08:47:42 UTC maph

    And review my emails. There are two threads of them, but the bottom line is the seller has refunded the money and is asking me to resend by bank transfer.
    08:49:41 UTC Juliana
    What a unique situation. So just to make sure I understand, you have received a refund for an item you have in your possession.
    08:50:12 UTC maph

    Yes. And the sale has been cancelled, as far as I can see.
    08:52:09 UTC maph

    The seller wishes me to repay them and has, as you can see suggested I send a bank transfer. Obviously I want them to get paid. However, when they asked to refund me I explicitly asked them not to on your advice and also because there is a fair bit
    08:52:50 UTC maph

    of chatter on the web about scams that involve refunds that are reversed once a second payment is received, especially as a bank transfer.
    08:54:51 UTC Juliana
    I see exactly what you mean, and you're 100% correct. For this very reason, we have very hard lines of what is considered acceptable as a seller and how they can receive payment as well as what we will protect.
    08:55:53 UTC Juliana
    It is also still correct that if you choose to pay them again there would be no eBay protection. More importantly, I want you to know that you are in no way obligated to do so.
    08:56:06 UTC maph

    Ok, so how do we proceed. As it stands, I have both the watch and the money, which is wrong. I'm keen for the seller to be paid, but I'm not keen to get scammed
    08:56:59 UTC maph

    I may not be legally obligated, but I am morally obligated to make sure they get the payment for the watch. I would assume there is a mechanism for managing this?
    08:57:09 UTC Juliana
    Unfortunately, rather then following the advice eBay provided, the seller decided to risk losing the protection and take other steps themselves. This is not something we will hold you to or require that you accept.
    08:57:44 UTC maph

    To be fair the seller didn't get the advice. I did. I only passed it on as you can see.
    08:58:12 UTC maph

    Right now, I don't seem to have much choice. The money is back in my account.
    08:58:53 UTC maph

    And I don't know how to pay them the money without risking a scam. However I assume that you or ebay can?
    08:59:46 UTC Juliana
    If you do want to re-purchase, we would advise that you resend through paypal only. Even then the eBay coverage will not apply
    09:01:10 UTC maph

    You will understand why I'm not keen to do that, lose protection and potentially be scammed. Can the seller cancel the reimbursement once I have paid them?
    09:01:23 UTC maph

    (the second time)?
    09:02:10 UTC Juliana
    We appreciate that you want to do the right thing here and pay for the item you have, however we simply cannot recommend that you comply with the seller's requests, as their request is violating several eBay policies.
    09:04:32 UTC maph

    I get that, but that isn't my fault. I've done the right thing to the letter. Despite that, this situation has occurred. Are you telling me that you cannot resolve it without me placing myself at risk or effectively stealing the watch. Neither is
    09:04:45 UTC maph

    satisfactory.
    09:05:58 UTC maph

    Surely there must be a mechanism within PayPal for managing this?
    09:07:00 UTC Juliana
    At this point we would usually advise sending the item back, or waiting for the seller to accept another payment back to the same email address.
    09:08:40 UTC maph

    I don't think the seller is being terribly cooperative and I'd rather keep the watch if possible.
    09:09:11 UTC maph

    Cant you talk to the seller and try to sort out what to do a little more formally?
    09:09:29 UTC maph

    CAn a refund be cancelled?
    09:11:33 UTC Juliana
    Understood. In that case, we would advise keeping the item and the refund you were issued. The refund cannot be cancelled.
    09:12:16 UTC Juliana
    The seller has forfeited the guarantee/protection of eBay by violating policy and putting you in this situation.
    09:13:12 UTC Juliana
    Since we cannot undo this, nor can we protect any new payment, unless you want to return the item, you are not obligated to re-pay and we cannot assist your request to re-pay.
    09:13:35 UTC maph

    I'm not prepared to do that because keeping both the money and the watch would simply be stealing and, even if I were prepared to do that on moral grounds, I'm pretty sure would break UK law
    09:14:03 UTC maph

    Can Paypal?
    09:14:16 UTC Juliana
    The refund cannot be undone.
    09:15:03 UTC maph

    Right. So is there any way I can resend that money without putting myself at risk or losing protection?
    09:15:38 UTC Juliana
    You will not be breaking any laws, Matthew. This was done by the seller. Our protection to you includes not giving any advise or recommending anything that we will not stand by, such as a repayment. The seller will be expected to count this as a business loss for violating the policy and going against our recommendation to correct the issue themselves
    09:16:18 UTC Juliana
    I know it sounds harsh, but the lines are pretty firm when it comes to these "off-ebay" situations
    09:17:24 UTC Juliana
    No. ANY way you re-send the payment now, will be outside of eBay's coverage. That's exactly what I mean. We cannot and will not ask that you do that because if something happens, we will not protect the transaction.
    09:17:33 UTC Juliana
    It was considered resolved/void/canceled when the seller decided to refund you.
    09:19:39 UTC maph

    I see. So you are seriously telling me to keep both a watch and the money that paid for it?
    09:21:41 UTC Juliana
    I am telling you that eBay cannot protect another transaction/repayemnt once the seller voluntarily refunds the sale. I appreciate your integrity. I respect that more than you know. I know you want to do the right thing. At this point, it is up to you to decide what you would like to do, understanding the risks and loss of protection.
    09:22:55 UTC Juliana
    As a consumer myself, I would strongly caution any consideration you may be having to send any kind of wire transfer or money order....paypal email personal payment is the safest way to go. That way you at least have paypal protection.
    09:23:19 UTC maph

    I see. So can paypal make sure I don't get scammed if I pay the seller again through paypal?
    09:23:36 UTC Juliana
    That is my personal opinion, not an eBay recommendation, since eBay cannot recommend either way.
    09:23:37 UTC Juliana
    Yes
    09:23:48 UTC maph

    Sorry. Cross post.
    09:23:51 UTC Juliana
    Well, PayPal has their own protections
    09:24:26 UTC Juliana
    It might be a good idea to reach out to them and know the boundaries of that coverage before you make any decisions.
    09:24:38 UTC maph

    I may well like to think of myself as moral, if as fallible as anyone. the idea of leaving someone else out of pocket by such a large amount make me feel a buit sick.
    09:25:14 UTC maph

    However, i don't want my doing the right thing to be opening me up to a scam.
    09:25:40 UTC Juliana
    I understand. Truly. Unfortunately, the day & age we live in requires that from where I stand, we utilize much caution in making exceptions.
    09:26:12 UTC Juliana
    Exactly. I am 100% on your side here. Just unfortunate you have yo worry so much about doing the right thing at all. In my opinion
    09:27:03 UTC maph

    I don't blame you. The internet is pretty bleak these days. However, the fact is that we all have to try to do the right thing and there's no way I'm not paying for something.
    09:28:50 UTC maph

    Right. So what can you do? can you reach out to the seller and explain the circumstances or explain the issue to paypal and work out the best way to move forward.
    09:29:12 UTC Juliana
    Just please please make sure you research all protection options before you do. Is all I ask. From one human to another.
    09:29:34 UTC Juliana
    We cannot advise the seller, just like we cannot advise you. This will be between you, the seller and paypal at this point.
    09:30:02 UTC Juliana
    PayPal can educate you and the seller on their friends and famaily payments protection, and you can decide from there.
    09:30:28 UTC maph

    Thanks, that's kind of you. I must say that while the policies seem pretty harsh, you are putting a very human face on them.
    09:31:34 UTC maph

    However, the practicality is that I need to pay for the watch - surely I can do it as a paying for something payment - friends and family is another route used by scammers I think.
    09:32:29 UTC Juliana
    Exactly why I hesitate in recommending re-payment at all.
    09:32:50 UTC Juliana
    It may be worth it to talk to paypal to learn more about protections they offer.
    09:33:05 UTC maph

    CAn you explain the possible scams available here?
    09:33:25 UTC Juliana
    It will not be re-paid for through eBay.
    09:33:32 UTC Juliana
    Possible scams?
    09:34:10 UTC maph

    Well, having refunded me. If I pay them again, what can they do?
    09:34:24 UTC maph

    to rip me off?
    09:34:55 UTC maph

    Paypal don't offer the concierge service and I've struggled with them in the past. What route would you recommend?
    09:34:57 UTC Juliana
    That is a great question for PayPal
    09:35:28 UTC maph

    Ok. I get the picture. There's basically nothing more you can do here. Correct?
    09:35:53 UTC maph

    Can you pass the issue over to paypal so I don't have to explain it all over again?
    09:36:08 UTC maph

    Or send them some sort of heads up?
    09:37:24 UTC Juliana
    I wish I could, Matthew but we have no way to do so. They will only speak to you directly, we are unable to contact them about you or on your behalf. I assure you I have tried I will say that they are starting to roll out the chat option to some of their accounts. That might be less of a headache and worth looking for within your account
    09:38:42 UTC maph

    Ok that's something. Is there anything else I can do withing ebay, can you escalate it to a level where hands might be less tied or is that it?
    09:38:58 UTC maph

    In which case where do I look on paypal?
    09:41:33 UTC Juliana
    Once the seller refunded you, eBay's involvement was permanently severed in regards to this item. No level of eBay will be able to do speak to this, as PayPal is separate and has very firm lines of account verification that permit only the user themselves to discuss that account.
    09:42:10 UTC maph

    Should I advise the seller to contact you or would that be pointless?
    09:42:52 UTC Juliana
    If they need confirmation that we will not protect repayment, I suppose that could help. Otherwise we would be referring them also to PayPal
    09:43:57 UTC maph

    Right, that would be a start. Is there a particular adress to refer them to or link to pass on?
    09:45:25 UTC Juliana
    No. They can contact eBay through following the "contact us" steps within ebay, and the same steps within their paypal account will take them to paypal.
    09:46:15 UTC maph

    Fair enough.
    09:46:50 UTC maph

    Ok, if I decided to send the damned watch back, would the return be through ebay channels and protected as usual?
    09:48:26 UTC maph

    sorry to keep asking daft questions. I'm just after a resolution.
    09:48:26 UTC Juliana
    No, however we would offer to reimburse you for the cost of the label once it is delivered back to the seller, crediting your paypal
    09:48:33 UTC Juliana
    You're ok
    09:49:08 UTC maph

    Cool. Thanks very much.
    09:50:50 UTC maph

    I think that's about all I can think of anyway. Than you so much for your time and patience. I appreciate it. And I especially appreciate the human advice.
    09:51:30 UTC maph

    It's an increasingly rare thing these days.
    09:51:32 UTC Juliana
    My pleasure. Truly
    09:51:53 UTC Juliana
    I just wish I had happier resolutions to offer, is all
    09:52:03 UTC Juliana
    But I respect you too much to lead you astray
    09:53:02 UTC Juliana
    I do sincerely wish you the best of luck with this.
    09:53:09 UTC maph

    That's fine, ebay has worked out least worst policies over the years and it's sensible to follow them - sadly good business and The Good are not quite the same.
    09:54:22 UTC maph

    My experience is that luck tends to happen when you prepare carefully. As such I'll be doing my best to make sure that this is resolved in a way that leaves everything as it should be.
    09:54:46 UTC maph

    And thanks for your help in doing that.
    09:54:52 UTC Juliana
    I call those "good karma points"
    09:55:24 UTC Juliana
    I hope it was helpful. It's been my pleasure.
    09:56:12 UTC maph

    It has. And I suspect it's done your karma no harm either Cheers, Matt
    09:57:27 UTC Juliana
    lol. Cheers Matt. Thanks for contacting eBay
    09:57:56 UTC maph

    Thanks for being the human face of ebay.
    09:58:45 UTC Juliana
    Anytime!
    09:59:13 UTC
    Chat ended by Juliana
    So there it is. Any opinions on either issue gladly received. I'm having a strange week with Hans Wilsdorf's products. Just how strange will become clearer...

  2. #2
    Moderator - Central tribe125's Avatar
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    You paid. The item arrived. Was it satisfactory? Was there contact between you and the seller after the item’s arrival? Why did the seller send a refund?

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    So there it is. Any opinions on either issue gladly received. I'm having a strange week with Hans Wilsdorf's products. Just how strange will become clearer...
    I think you and Juliana should get a room


    I'm not sure what the issue is here, nor what the seller is doing/has done.. (I only read part of the transcript to be honest )

    We haven't got the full story here?

    The seller sold you a watch
    You paid by paypal
    They refunded you and then asked you to bank transfer ???



    As ebay has said, the seller appears to acted as if on drugs... I'm not sure if ebay or the seller can come after you and force you to either re-pay or force you to return the watch .... they can't relist the watch and ask you to pay that cos they'd have to prove they sent a 2nd doppelgänger watch (that doesn't exist) to you.
    Even if you pay them through paypal directly (for services/product) you could still subsequently ask for a refund because they won't be able to send the service/product (cos you've got it already)

    Lose the watch (and return postage) and send it back tracked.
    Keep the watch
    Last edited by Seriously; Aug 1, 2019 at 07:17 AM.
    Watches for SALE:
    <PRICE REDUCED> Nivrel 322 Black Dial: http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...869#post447869

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  6. #4
    Having read a bit more, I’m thinking the seller refunded you the PayPal payment MAYBE on the basis that it would absolve him of any “warranty” commitment, i.e. it would kill any chance of you putting a claim in, but MAYBE he thought you might be honest (and gullible enough) to just pay back the “mistake” via bank transfer to rebalance the books.
    Risky strategy by the seller trusting you to be honest , but maybe the watch didn’t cost him much.

    I dunno, it’s weird
    Watches for SALE:
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  8. #5
    People make mistakes and they learn from them.
    The seller made a mistake. You could hold the money for one year or so and then return it?

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  10. #6
    Right, fair enough, I didn't give all the context. Here's the message conversations following the payment:




    Him

    Good morning did the watch get to you without any issues


    Me

    Good morning

    I’m afraid it hasn’t arrived yet. According to the tracking it isn’t meant to arrive until the 31st as its second class post. I’ll let you know as soon as it arrives.

    him

    Any news on the watch


    Me
    Hi,

    Sorry for the delay, I was late back and haven't had a chance to look at it properly. I was a bit surprised that the movement was loose in the case, but I was expecting a repair job at the price and so that's fair enough. I'll pop some positive feedback up tomorrow.

    Cheers,

    Matt


    So far so normal. From this point on however...

    Him


    Ok great I'm glad it got to you without any issues yes feedback would be great thanks. Do you happen to know which PayPal account the payment went to dose it say on your PayPal activity


    Me

    Hi,

    I sent the money directly through the ebay system and apparently it went here:

    eBay - Michael McGoldxxx (natmcxxx)

    I hope that helps.
    Matt




    Him

    Do you possibly have a transaction id so I can find out where it's gone. Many thanks


    Me

    Hi,

    Of course you can, here you go:

    Transaction ID
    8HM75344BC45xxxxx

    I hope that helps.

    Matt



    Him

    Hi I've had some issues with the PayPal account if I send you a refund will you be good with sending the money to a different PayPal account



    Hi, I've spoken to my ebay concierge about this and they have told me in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't do this and that I would lose ebay protection if I did. I'm sorry I don't know you, but I do know there are a number of scams based upon refunds and repayments and, on the advice of eBay, I have been told not to send the payment again and to tell you that you should contact Paypal directly to resolve the issue and that they will be able to resolve it.. I'm happy for paypal to contact me to help resolve this if necessary, but, as the concierge pointed out, the payment has been completed, meaning it was accepted.

    Sorry I can't help.

    Matt


    Him

    That's ok just wish I knew where it's gone
    Him

    Hi ive had no choice as i needed to send you the refund back to you would a simple bank transfer be ok with you
    He hadn't just refunded me, he'd cancelled the whole transaction! This is the point at which I had the second conversation with the concierge. Ebay's position, that I should just keep both, seems utterly immoral to me. However, this chap, if chap it is, has put me in a ridiculous position as ebay have simply washed their hands of it. I don't know if this chap is a scammer or desperate, stupid and incompetent.

    Me

    Hi,

    Yes I got your message. You are aware that by cancelling the sale and refunding the money you have also voided all the protection that ebay afforded both you and I. More to the point, I explicitly asked you not to on the explicit advice of ebay. The watch wasn't as described, with the movement rattling around loose in the case. Now you are asking me to transfer money to you via bank transfer in a manner that is a recognised scam. You have given me no reason to trust you.

    You put me in an impossible position. I've spoken at length to ebay about this and they have effectively washed their hands of it and passed it to paypal.
    I'm going to talk to paypal tomorrow and try to work out how the hell to resolve this mess so neither of us is out of pocket. Perhaps you might want to as well.


    Him, and most recent:

    Hi Matt PayPal have said it would be best if me and you could sort this out between the two of us so hopefully we can get this sorted out amicably. Regurds Simon










    Last edited by Matt; Aug 1, 2019 at 12:28 PM.

  11. #7
    Scam in the making right there.

    In the seller dashboard there is a clear button titled "View paypal transaction"

    This will take you to paypal where you have to log in and then you can view the aforementioned transaction.
    To say he didn't know where the money went is a load of old tosh, he simply needed to click this button.

    His ebay account settings area will also be able to say which paypal account is linked to the ebay account.
    Last edited by Seriously; Aug 1, 2019 at 12:09 PM.
    Watches for SALE:
    <PRICE REDUCED> Nivrel 322 Black Dial: http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...869#post447869

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  13. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriously View Post
    Scam in the making right there.

    In the seller dashboard there is a clear button titled "View paypal transaction"

    This will take you to paypal where you have to log in and then you can view the aforementioned transaction.
    To say he didn't know where the money went is a load of old tosh, he simply needed to click this button.

    His ebay account settings area will also be able to say which paypal account is linked to the ebay account.
    I know that, but it isn't clear to me that he does. So how exactly would the scam play out. Obviously he'll get a bank transfer over my dead body, but lets say that, having discussed it with paypal, I paid for the watch again to a different account through paypal. How can that be turned to his advantage?

    It's a bit confusing.

  14. #9
    MWC is that my watch's Avatar
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    hmmm tricky my spider sense is tingling he either incompetent which if you do try to send the money how to safely is it not many options... so say thats out .

    then what to do morally and monetary .

    ok morally you have done nothing wrong it was faulty beyond what they said ( maybe he thought later he could get more so has done this hoping ebay would advise sending it back ) which if so has back fired now what to do with it .

    one and the simplest way send it back recorded or above hoping he will refund the post ..but at this point the cost of the post is unimportant and be done with it - and be happy with the moral victory of doing the right thing even though it would cost post and the watch you want . but for your own moral health would feel better .

    two wash your hands of it and keep the watch , but then would always feel a tacky and wrong on wearing it

    three pay for it but how with out putting yourself at risk so this sort of negates this option , so that leave's one or two don't it ..


    so simple answer is for yourself and for how you feel do what you feel best keep it if you want as he did not follow the rules and he did not follow what you requested by not refunding and he did not follow ebays rules so he could forfeit it on those grounds alone .

    me I would send it back and move on not worth the worry and moral feeling of wrong doing even it legal you ant doing wrong even if on some moral level you are keeping something that is not rightful yours suppose it simple comes down too.

    you can but should you ?

    mean we know if he has it back he will flog it again and probably for more as he will know it's true value. but least you would have a clear conscience and that to me is priceless .

    some might think me crazy you got something for free keep it but it's a world I don't want to be part of, moral's should always count for something even if in this day and again they are very few and far between.and you are looked on as a fool for doing the right thing when you can get away with doing wrong .

    just my thought thou mate .
    one night I dreamed I was locked in my fathers watch, with Ptolemy and twenty one ruby stars mounted on spheres and the primum mobile coiled and gleaming to the end of space and the notched spheres eating each other's rinds to the last tooth of time and the case closed - John Ciardi ...

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  16. #10
    If he has acquired the eBay account password and *doesn’t* have the password associated with the PayPal account, there’s no way he can take and transfer the actual money out of PayPal.

    I think he’s acting numb in a bid to get you to help him.

    if that watch cost him <£50 say he’s not lost much, but could gain a whole lot more.

    PS: You did realise PayPal is now a separate company to eBay, they split it apart a couple of years ago... which is why they can’t just transfer you to PayPal now.
    Last edited by Seriously; Aug 1, 2019 at 12:48 PM.
    Watches for SALE:
    <PRICE REDUCED> Nivrel 322 Black Dial: http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...869#post447869

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